Mansi: Hello and welcome to Baringa’s COO podcast. The rise of the COO where I'll be welcoming chief operating officers, subject matter experts and industry experts from across our clients at Baringa to engage in different topics that matter to CEOs in today's world. My name is Mansi Patel, and I'm part of the leadership team at Baringa and sponsor of COO network. The reason we've launched this podcast is that we really see the role of the COO in most businesses is changing. Historically, they've had a wide-ranging remit, which might range from running the operations, making sure that all the hands-on work is done, making sure that the teams are in place to really help drive through the change in an organization, as some of it has felt a little bit low level from 20 years ago. Increasingly, over the last decade, what we really see is the prominence of these COOs in the C-suite. The COO is now looked upon as one of the key driving forces of delivering change and strategic change into businesses. On behalf of the CEO and working with the broader leadership team. We believe the role of the COO will continue to evolve with digitization, with data being embedded through the business and the introduction of gen AI. And we're really keen to hear about what that really means for some of the COOs that we've been engaging with, so they can share some of those insights more broadly into a community that might be interested to hear more. The objective of our podcast really is to discuss and understand some of the greatest challenges and opportunities for COOs over the next 3 to 5 years and will share insight into how COOs from around the globe are doing and approaching some of the challenges that they're experiencing. Our first topic today is going to focus on workforce of the future, skills and capabilities that will make COOs and their teams successful in tomorrow's world. We're featuring a client guest today, and I'll be delighted to welcome Havana Abid into our studio in a moment. And we'll also be joined by Laura McKim, a partner in our organization People and Change Team. So, let's start there. Let's do a little bit of a welcome. Hello, Havana. Thank you for joining us today.
Havana: Hi Mansi, thank you so much for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Mansi: Pleasure to see you as always. And hello, Laura as well.
Laura: Thank you. Lovely to be with you guys.
Mansi: Brilliant. Well, listen, I've got so many questions about this topic, and I'm sure we're going to have a lot of fun, really exploring some of what this means. But how about a why don't you share a little bit about your role, who you are and what's brought you here into this role?
Havana: Absolutely, thank you Mansi. I am delighted to be here, especially as it’s the first podcast in your new series so thank you for choosing to host me, it is a real honor. So, my role, I have the privilege of being the Senior Vice President of Global Finance and Operations here at Pearson, we are the World’s lifelong learning company and I am blessed to have an amazing team responsible for the things you would typically see a COO handle which includes run the show day to day activities such as Finance Operations, so all the money in and money out - collections, payables, financial accounting and reporting etc, managing shared services and our outsourcing partners, global procurement, property and real estate, workplace services and our supply chain. I also lead specialist teams that change the show, so we handle transformation for the company, M&A, divestments, global programmes and process engineering, driving modernisation through AI and automation for all our lines of business. A little about me, I have a 30-year career in banking, financial services, insurance and now honoured to be part of Pearson the learning company but my passion and pedigree has always been leading Operations and Transforming organisations.
Mansi: Great. Well, lovely to have you here. I've got so many questions that that's prompted. Let me quickly welcome, Laura, before we perhaps come back to you and hear a little bit more about that. Laura, why don't you introduce yourself?
Laura: Thank you. I'm a partner in our people team here at Baringa, and my passion is really about transforming workforces. So structurally and culturally and trying to create a sort of win win outcome for organizations where we bring the really best of their people to the forefront and sort of unlock all their potential, but also land the business outcomes and the operational excellence that they need to deliver.
Mansi: Great. Thank you. Laura, why don't I kick us off with a question to get this conversation going? I mean, first of all Havana, just with that broad remit that you describe that sits under your kind of reach and responsibility, there's a lot that you sit across. And with so much that's changing in the market, all the disruptive forces are out there, particularly, I guess, over the last few years. How do you handle all of that? What do you see is key for COOs to really focus on in terms of managing all of that disruption, but really being able to put a laser focus on the skills and talent that you actually need to get right to develop for the future as well.
Havana: Great question, Mansi. I have seen the role of a COO evolve over the years, it has never really been a fixed role, it varies by industry, organization and the needs of the company, but I have seen this role evolve at its roots, in my experience its bolder, bigger and more transformative and less reactive than it has been in the past. This has largely been in response to all the disruptive forces including technology advancement, economic and demographic shifts and global trading challenges. So, in my opinion, COOs who are known for handling day to day operations and executing strategies for the top management team, are seeing a real shift in both the hard and soft skills they need to lead their organizations into the future. From a hard skills perspective, COOs are increasingly more involved in Strategic planning than before, need greater financial acumen, have to translate strategies into operational realities in a much stronger way than ever, coupled with strong project management skills, and using data analytics to drive insightful action they are also expected to be proficient in process and lean management. More recently, technology advancements mean they are constantly learning too - about emerging tech and becoming more tech savvy with the use of AI, automation, cloud capabilities, digital transformation so we are now continuously learning at a pace that I have not seen before which is accelerating the natural rhythm of business in organizations. From a Soft skills perspective, problem solving, managing complexity, and leading large groups of people have always been part of the core skills of a COO but focus is now boosted towards being more agile and flexible, having strong change management skills, excellent communication skills and the ability to drive cross company collaboration especially now when we have multi-generational workforces and are often driving multi-faceted transformations. COOs must get way more comfortable with multiple proof of concepts and rapid innovation culture, which often means in the short term, more operational complexity and workarounds which they must be able to navigate whilst inspiring colleagues as they convey these strategies into action. As strategic thought leaders, COOs are being tapped into for our insight and experience of not just what the company does, but how things actually happen in the company, and this is now precious intelligence that is vital as organizations drive more high stakes digital transformation. Gone are the days where we were seen to be in the engine room with, you know, the boiler suit, hammers and spanners, you will see more of us now at the ideation, design and decision-making tables anticipating the change, helping to connect the pipes and wires and making the arteries of the organization more resilient for strategic execution. As natural collaborators our roles have evolved from not just connecting our operational teams on the shop floor, but we are also acting as the binding agents and catalysts across the whole company. Finally, no COO would be worth their salt if they were not excellent hiring and talent managers, this is a critical skill in my opinion as we are often net exporters of talent into other roles across the organization and so must not just hire for the job in hand but for broader capabilities needed for tomorrow. Being excellent recruiters is now also a key skill.
Mansi: Great and such a breadth of have things you have to do in there as well, just in particularly that connection from the top to the bottom, I think is a real challenge. Just as you landed on that talent point there, I guess I find myself thinking you talked about AI, you talked about digital, you talked about data in there. How do you both attract all of that talent into your organization, but also keep yourself relevant as COOs growing into that, how do you get ahead of that or learn for that in order to then attract the talent in?
Havana: Yeah, when hiring talent, for me it starts with articulating a strong company story and culture, by that I mean being super clear what the company is about, its strategy its purpose and its values, increasingly I see that new talent is looking to connect with the company mission and wants to feel excited about what is on offer. With competitive compensation, flexible working arrangements, having policies that promote work life balance, such as hybrid working flexible hours etc. and being innovative, with exciting projects you can attract talent. Now retaining talent, is a different story, increasingly people are looking for more professional development, look when I started my career, I was told there are 3 phases in your life, learning, earning and returning but that is no longer the case. Learning is now lifelong with the pace of change, and disruption in business, most people joining today’s workforce know this and so they want to work for companies that will invest in their professional development, focus on their skills evolution, help them grow and evolve so they can drive greater earning capacity and be recognized and remain relevant in the workplace. We know from research that Peason has done that when an individual’s knowledge and skills grow, they get happier, they get smarter, they get physically better off, they improve their earnings, they get healthier, and they have longevity. So, learning impacts an individual’s life creating a ripple effect for them, their families and their community, so just like sleep, nutrition and exercise, learning is now vital to our lives and in retaining talent in organizations. People also want to belong to a company that has societal impacts, is promoting diversity, equity and inclusion and is sustainability conscious so it can be a place they can be proud of those respects and empowers its people. For example, I have the privilege of being the executive sponsor of our Disability Inclusion group, which allows me to be a voice and drive real life impacting action for disability inclusion in the workplace putting tangible actions into how we operate. COOs create a breeding ground for talent exporting people into other groups across the organization and you do this by offering people assignments, breakthrough experiences, developing their skills and experiences with project work, so they become visible and known across the company and can build networks. And finally, the test of a good COO is that people you've worked with in the past want to continue to keep working with you. I am proud to say I have some people in my team who have worked with me before also.
Mansi: So important, particularly in such a period of flux and change in the market as well. So that's quite telling. Sounds like you've got a wonderful environment. As you say, the mission of the organization here really supports some of this development as well. Perhaps Laura might bring you in to this and ask for some of your thoughts and observations. Because you've worked with many organizations, what would you share?
Laura: Interesting. I'm hearing you talk Havana about the growth of skills, because that's something which is right at the top of most of our clients agenda. And it comes from so many different angles and benefits the organization in so many different ways. So we see it coming to build a more fungible workforce, to have employees building skills that you can deploy as you meet demand. We see it in building that, as you talked about that kind of skills, growth and career path for the individuals. We see it in the market to stay competitive, to build the future skills that the employee groups don't have. How it translates into an almost an internal operating model is a really interesting question, and that's where I think our clients are trying different routes at the moment. And probably for me, it's something which we're on the cusp of getting right. So thinking about, you know, is it a skills marketplace you're building or a talent ecosystem who owns the talent? Who is responsible for growing the talent? These are questions which are really important for our clients to get right, because actually, the ecosystem that the talent operates in is where you can really create impact and value. So it's something which I love hearing you talk about, I'm very supportive of. But actually, how does it work in practice is a question I think we all need to answer.
Havana: Yeah, Laura I think it’s both, COOs are building talent ecosystems, by using partners, internal networks and sharing skills and talent across the company and even across organizational boundaries with their strategic partners more so than we may have ever done in the past. Operations of old valued their chief clerk and did not want to lose that experience or knowledge but in the last decade I have seen a real shift, driven by the changing market dynamics, new customer needs and desire for personal development from their staff - COOs are also thinking ahead, building more resilience in their operations and creating a connected learning and skills marketplace for their organizations. This is a really hot topic for many COOs and is close to my heart because it’s a fundamental part of what Pearson does. We have core strengths and capabilities as a learning and assessment company that enables us to build a world where everyone is prepared for the future of work. Individuals can connect their skills to new opportunities and seek better career outcomes allowing companies to retain and maximize the potential of their people. We have a division in our business dedicated to this called Workforce Skills – which has created solutions for language learning, formal education, vocational qualifications, workforce planning, digital credentialing which is so important in an AI world to verify people have real skills as well as aptitude and assessment capabilities. Pearson has developed solutions that provide real time data to companies on the verified skills people have now and the skills they may need for the future so companies can invest in right types of skills they need in the future like turning say the bank tellers of yesterday into data analysts for tomorrow. We are helping companies build that pathway whether through formal education, skills development or alternative routes to qualifying by offering the right learning pedagogy, content and skills accreditation and testing to enable those skill-based career outcomes and its part of the solutions we offer as a lifelong learning company and I am really proud and excited to be part of this.
Laura: I absolutely love that. I think one of the things we see with loyalty in the workforce is that actually, if you can reskill that current workforce, you keep those people who understand your organization. They're committed to it. They're passionate about building their career there, but you equip them with those future skills. They will create untold value for you. And I think, you know, we we see, a great stat, actually. I love from Bersin a couple of years ago. So six times less expensive to build your technical skills inside your organization than to buy them. And I mean, that is testament to why investing in that future of work, that longer term reskilling is the thing that organizations really need to be thinking about now. Because actually, in a couple of years, it will be too late.
Havana: No, absolutely. Look at the facts, at Macro level we are seeing a demographic cliff ahead, for example 10% of US jobs will be vacated by retiring boomers in the next 5 years, and there just aren’t people to replace them. Unless migration policies dramatically shift, which is you know unlikely this puts incredible pressure on leaders to figure out how to find new talent sources, how to reskill existing people with the things they need for the future, and how to augment workforces with AI.
We also know that the population is ageing, more people are living longer and want to and can keep contributing and can be valuable to companies if we think differently about skills and work in the future. At the same time, the youth population is growing in emerging markets creating a huge demand for quality affordable education, desire for learning and companies willing to invest in skills growth. In April 2023, we released the Pearson Skills Outlook partnering with Google to survey 4,000 workers in four countries (U.S., U.K., India and Brazil) really to see what skills people were prioritizing for their career development.
What the survey found– Globally is that
- Employees are preparing for a tech-focused world by building human skills like problem solving, teamwork, and critical thinking. They believe these skills are most attractive to employers now and will be in the future. It’s an interesting question, how do you leverage the skills and experience of those leaving the formal workplace and connect those to match them to the needs of those entering the workplace? It requires us to think very differently about skills than we have done in the past.
- Prioritize human skills at a time when machine learning and artificial intelligence are having an increasing influence on work is a major learning driver
- For those most interested in tech careers, focus on human skills is vital to land a new job or advance in their current role.
- In non-English speaking countries, learning English is emerging as a key skill for employees to advance in their careers
- What's more: employees expect to keep learning throughout their careers, want employers to invest in their learning and are willing to put in the work. Most workers (74%) prefer to learn via their employer, and 92% of workers expect their workplace to increase or maintain learning and development opportunities for them and make time for learning in the workplace.
On that topic, In May 2024, we released the Pearson Skills Outlook report called – Reclaim the Clock – in it we analysed everyday workplace tasks that could easily be supported by generative AI, and how much time workers could potentially save through its use. Using our workforce planning modelling, we identified the top 10 job tasks in which time could be saved with the help of AI, across five countries (Australia, Brazil, India, the US and UK), the research found that organizations that embrace the emerging technologies, can unlock millions of hours of time to reallocate to more valuable tasks by using Gen AI on the job. In nearly every workplace, people spend their day on common, time-consuming tasks that eat away at productivity or their work/life balance. If those tasks could be augmented by generative AI, employers and their workers could reallocate time to the things that need a more human touch. Companies and their workers could reallocate time to focus on tasks that are better suited to human-led input: strategic thinking, collaboration, caring for others, communication, decision making, innovation, problem solving, empathy, leadership or just in learning and growing new skills. So, I feel at an individual level, even small amounts of time saved with Generative AI can help people feel more in control of their job and achieve a better work life balance allowing time for learning and skills growth.
Mansi: And that's a fantastic insight, both in the research and as you've described it, as a way to really unlock productivity change within the organization and harness that. I've seen that, you know, that's possible. How impatient are your exec, to make that a reality? So, in your role, how does that manifest in terms of pressure timeline change? Tell us a little bit about what the lived experience of that is.
Havana: Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, I think, I'm a firm believer that strategy without execution is hallucination. And so there is an awful lot of that happening in a lot of organizations where people take execution of the hallucination. And I just mentioned there's definitely a, a strategy and a desire for organizations to move quickly. But the real secret sauce is how you align the head, the heart and the hands of everybody in your organization to kind of move in that direction. And I'm finding that a lot of that comes from the role of the COO acting as that connecting tissue between the strategy and the ideas, and the kind of top end view of what we want to be. And then really translating that for the workers and the teams and the organization in terms of its processes and systems to really enables us. And that translation of workforce in, in, in real terms is how I see it coming to life, how strategy becomes execution in organizations.
Mansi: and how open is the exec this shift, this change, this requirement in your business to undergo quite a big transformation in what your workforce actually do. I know they desire it, but where's where do you feel the support or where do you feel the constraints in that?
Havana: I mean, I think I'm blessed in that I have an organization where from the top all the way down, there's an absolute desire, there's an alignment because we're a mission centric business and we take that stuff seriously. We genuinely are about creating the right skills for the future of work, and it is about having that kind of purpose that says, we're not just here to make money, we're not just here to, you know, you know, pay out dividends to shareholders. That stuff is important. But actually, the organization is here for its social impact that it has in the world. And I think a lot of people, particularly a lot of the next generation of workers want to work for organizations that have more than just, you know, bottom line impact. And so therefore, I find that I get a lot of support from my boss. I get a lot of support from my peers. I get a lot of support from the CEO of the organization, who is absolutely determined to make the vision a reality. And a lot of it is down to you individually, as a person working in an organization, do you believe? do you align? Are you willing to put money, time, effort, energy, blood, sweat, tears into making these ideas and visions a reality? And I think the role of the COO and the role I play in organizations like Pearson is all about making that a reality. Taking ideas and visions and making them come true.
Mansi: Sounds like both the intent and the execution is really well aligned there. I mean, Laura, I know your experience will be that not every organization has that in place. Is there anything you'd add just around some of the conditions for success in really thinking about getting to the future talent that you need within your workforce in an organization?
Laura: Yeah, I love that question. Mansi. I think there's some truth in the concept of leader alignment and leader focus. So, listening to Havana talk about, you know, really concentrating on the outcomes that matter, my observations from seeing how different organizations work, understanding what the future talent is. I mean, it's a sort of obvious, or miss value stream of activity. What are the capabilities we need as a future organization? Do we have the right talent to deliver those? When you think about technical concepts like strategic workforce planning, you know, can we build those capabilities and skills through our own workforce? Do we need to buy them in? Are there, you know, areas we need to boost for a particular time whilst we go on the journey? So, it's having some discipline and structure but being as clear as you can be about what you need to get to in the future, because without that you're sort of slightly fumbling around in the dark. And we know that these reskilling activities take, you know, two, three, four, five years often. So actually, we have to be more planful with our talent than we've ever had to be before. And I think that's my major takeaway.
Mansi: Great. Thank you. Perhaps shifting the emphasis, a little bit to the learning of leaders. So as some of the disruptions are happening around us, as new things are entering the market, new expectations of what we need to be aware of as leaders in our own businesses. How do your leaders learn Havana in person? How do you learn?
Havana: Yeah. So let me start with how I learn. Some of it is by deliberate choice of, you know, sitting down, leading, listening, connecting with people. Some of it is trial and error. You make a mistake, you burn your hand once, you don't burn it twice. And that becomes a learning, a learning mechanism for me. But also, I learned an awful lot by just observing and being aware of what's happening around me. I think COOs are increasingly becoming much more connected to lots of parts of the organization. They may not necessarily have a direct influence or a direct decision-making role, but just knowing and being connected with what's the rhythm of business and how things are moving around the organization means that you learn. And I think it is about having corporate curiosity. I think I've been successful in my career because I've always asked the why question many, many times. I want to know; I want to open the toaster and see how the thing works. I'm not interested in just knowing that toast comes out of the top. So I think it is about, have you got that curiosity? And I think increasingly what I'm seeing in the workplace, particularly with the talent I hire and the development of my leaders and managers, is that people are becoming more curious. People want to understand, people want to learn. People feel the desire of not wanting to be left behind. And it can be quite scary as well. You know, you're having to push yourself into becoming, you know, consciously incompetent when you've spent a lot of your years being very competent and being recognized and rewarded for being competent. And all of a sudden, you're talking to somebody who is probably the age of your son or your daughter, and they're teaching you about large language models, and you're feeling very incompetent. And I think it's being safe with that. As a leader, recognizing that the world has evolved. You don't have to be the person that has all the answers. You can actually be the person that asks the questions. And that's what I find is the best way that I learn and what I encourage my teams to do. Be curious, ask why, and then ask the questions. I don't be the person that has all the answers.
Mansi: Yeah, there's something about comfortably sitting in the discomfort. Yeah, I think serves you really well in this understanding what we need to grow into even as leaders in this changing world. Laura, any posts from you?
Laura: Yeah, I mean, one of the things I love, have know you talking about is your own vulnerability, because we know that leaders who are vulnerable connects much more closely to their teams. I think the other thing is the role modeling. So when we look organizations who are shifting towards a learning organization in the way that they work, we see that, it is leaders who role model committing time to the learning. I mean, that's the thing that most of us don't have the time. I'm actually taking some of this space in their day and focusing on building those new skills, creating space for their team, creating a psychologically space, a safe environment where you don't have to know everything. And that team can go and learn. And those make a massive difference. And they can't be underestimated, because otherwise you end up in an environment where there's beautifully designed training courses that nobody ever does, which is not the outcome we need as an organization or as a workforce.
Havana: One of the really interesting things, Laura, just to pick up on your point is something that we started in person, which was encouraging people to invest 40 hours a year in their learning. Now, that might sound like a daunting task, and you may be thinking, how the hell do organizations carve out that much time? When you break it down, it's ten minutes a day. And that little encouragement that I give my team, grab a cup of coffee and just listen to this video for ten minutes. Read this article for ten minutes. If you make a commitment to do just ten minutes a day, you'll be amazed at how much you learn in the course of a year. And that's something that I've had personal, tried and tested experience of doing. And it's amazing. And I think sometimes people find it hard to go, look, I'm too busy. COOs especially, you know, the fireworks are going off, the towering infernos are all around you. 90,000 people want your time and attention, and you sometimes sit there. And the thing that suffers the most for COOs is that they potentially kind of neglect their own learning and development. And so, I encourage my teams on myself to kind of commit to at least just ten minutes a day. And that would be my kind of counsel to people.
Mansi: I think that's so important, because what we often see in organizations is that something in the market, or the growth of the organization, or a shift in the organization, means the organization outgrows the ability of the individual, and actually, their desire to keep up isn't strong enough that they're willing to become relevant again or evolve enough to stay relevant to the organization. And then you end up with a real disconnect between what you're carrying in the organization is talent that hasn't been stretched enough or developed enough, versus what the organization might need, and keeping the gap really narrow on that. Ideally, no gap, I think, is such a core thing that organizations really need to think about when they look at their workforce today as well. I might ask if it's okay, Havana, for you to share what one of those learning moments has been in the 40 hours of learning that you do? And perhaps I'll ask you in a moment as Laura as well. Laura.
Havana: Yeah, definitely. So, one of the things I did recently was that one of our partners that is a supplier, but also a kind of strategic partner to us, you know, was had emailed me and just said, look, we're doing this thing and, you know, would you be interested? And typically, you can imagine I run procurement for Pearson, and I get thousands of people telling me how their latest idea is going to suddenly change my life. And so you guys are right. Yes. And so other than pressing delete, I kind of thought, well, maybe I should just kind of look into this. And I joined a ten minute, just it was kind of like a video podcast, which allowed me to listen to how an organization was adopting AI in automating just a simple in a sauce to pay payables process. And as I listened to that, I thought, wow, there are things that I was a little bit arrogant about. I thought I already knew the answer. What are they going to teach me? I don't already know, right? My hair is white. I've learned, you know, from experience, not from baking in the sun. And so there's a little bit of me kind of feeling that I putting myself out there going, maybe there are things I don't know. And I think just being open to listening. And I think that's something I find really difficult in for someone who's got as long a career as I have, who feels like she's been there, got the t shirt to kind of acknowledge that maybe I don't know everything. And that is a really big kind of piece of learning that I take away is like feeling that there are things out there that I'm now back learning again, you know, as, as a, as a senior leader. But that was really interesting, the kind of use of procurement AI and how that can actually help automate quite a lot of the things that we do manually in my shop today. And so it was a takeaway from just ten minutes of learning.
Mansi: Thank you for sharing that. And actually I saw your visible excitement as you just described that. And I'm learning again. So it's amazing what that can just do is a lift to an individual and every individual, I think in an organization as well. Laura, anything that you share.
Laura: Yeah, I mean, mine is largely my learning is driven from my team. So they come up with ideas and they've read things and they've seen things that I haven't necessarily. So listening to them and trying to carve out a little bit of time, I mean, similar to the ten minutes a day concept, which I love, we probably do it a little bit more flexibly than that. But when we have some time together, we think about who's seen something brilliant in the market. Part of the value that we bring as consultants is seeing things across all the industries and trying to help our clients learn from what others are doing. So us sharing those insights, and being really kind of challenging with each other about what could we do with that? How could we help evolve that thinking? And for me, some of my best learning, my favorite learning.
Mansi: I know we're almost at time, but I thought it might be helpful to perhaps ask each of you to offer, a perspective, a call to action, some advice that you might give some of our listeners on this topic. If you were to share an insight. What might that be? What would you encourage?
Havana: I think for me, Mansi, I think my, my ask of listeners would be. embrace the emerging changes that are coming towards you, particularly the technology skills that are now becoming much more front and center. And I think it's incumbent on all of us to kind of move with the times. So, rather than bury your head in the sand, you know, pick up the TikToks, pick up the discords, kind of learn what are some of these things that are happening out there. Encourage some of your more junior members of your team to kind of become reverse mentors, and to share and teach you about some of the things that are new in the emerging. But my last ask would be just stay curious.
Mansi: Great. Thanks, Havana. Laura?
Laura: On a very similar theme, one of the stats that was sticks in my head is that, you know, five years. It's the time it takes for half of your knowledge to be outdated. Five years and half of everything you know is not up to date. So really, simply, I would just say keep learning.
Mansi: Wonderful philosophy. Well, listen, it has been an absolute pleasure and delight to have you both with me today. Thank you for taking the time to be part of our first podcast. In this podcast series, first series, the rise of the COO, and we will have a follow up podcast in about a month, so stay tuned for those are interested to hear more and hear more insights from all the COOs that will welcome into the studio, and thank you both very much. Thank you Mansi.
